1. Roman Telezhynskyi Avatar Roman Telezhynskyi
  2. Untitled project
  3. Valentina
  4. Issues

Make Measurement Templates for patternmaking systems

Issue #359 wontfix
Susan Spencer created an issue

Make Measurement Templates for patternmaking systems

Here is a list of the patternmaking systems which have been reviewed to make the Measurements list as of 2015/09/10:

Note: User 'Buggi' provided info on the Systemschnitt system right after we finalized measurements for the v0.4.0 release. After this list is completed we will try to add Systemschnitt to the v0.5.0 release.

  • Abling
  • Aldrich/Men
  • Aldrich/Women
  • Allemong
  • American Garment Cutter
  • Barnfield and Richard
  • Bray
  • Brown
  • Bunka
  • Castro
  • Centre Point System
  • Davis
  • Doyle
  • Dressmaking International
  • Eddy
  • Ekern
  • Erwin
  • Friendship/Men
  • Friendship/Women
  • Fukomoto
  • Gilewska
  • Gough
  • Grimble
  • Handford
  • Hillhouse & Mansfield
  • Joseph-Armstrong
  • Kershaw
  • Kim & Uh
  • Kimata
  • Knowles/Men
  • Knowles/Women
  • Kopp
  • Kunick
  • Lady Boutique
  • Lo
  • Loh & Lewis
  • MacLochlainn
  • Mason
  • Master Designer
  • McCunn
  • Minister & Son
  • Mitchell
  • Moore
  • Morris, F. R.
  • Morris, K.
  • Pivnick
  • Rohr
  • Shelton
  • Strickland
  • Sugino
  • Supreme System
  • Thornton's International System
  • Waugh
  • Zarapkar

Comments (42)

  7. Roman Telezhynskyi repo owner

    Attached read-only template with all measurements.

    The file is not read only.

    <read-only>false</read-only>

    But don't fix this.

  8. Susan Spencer reporter

    You created a template for Aldrich men's, but every measurement in it is a custom measurement.

    The majority of every patternmaking system's fields are already in Valentina and in the Measurement diagram.

    Every field in a patternmaking system should not be a custom field.

    Each patternmaking system may have only a few special measurements that require a custom formula. these are usually garment-lengths or widths and are not body measurements.

    Example of using Valentina variable:

    • Aldrich uses Height
    • For this, Valentina has diagram A01, description Height:Total, variable name height
    • The Aldrich template should map it's measurement label Height to the Valentina height variable name.
    • The Create/Edit dialog should show Valentina's variable height, Aldrich's label Height, the calculate value, and the formula (blank in this instance).
    • It should also be able to show the image for this measurement with a radio button.

    Example of using a custom variable:

    • Aldrich uses Cuff, two piece
    • This is not a body measurement, this is a garment measurement, there is not a diagram available.
    • The Aldrich template should create a new @cuff_two_piece variable name.
    • The Create/Edit dialog should show the custom variable @cuff_two_piece, Aldrich's label Cuff, two piece, the calculated value, and the formula (1.72*arm_wrist_circ).
    • It should have a disabled, greyed out radio button because there is noimage for this garment measurement.
  10. Susan Spencer reporter

    Note: There is a custom body measurement in Aldrich men's that isn't in Valentina.

    The Aldrich name is Half Back and it's Valentina formula is (across_back_b/2) There is not a diagram available, nor should there be one. The person who needs this template will either know the system or be able to figure out what it is from the formula. The Aldrich template creates a new half_back variable name, but IMHO it should be @half_back to show that it's custom.

  11. Susan Spencer reporter

    I read and studied every patternmaking system posted previously in the thread, with the express purpose of being able to map a patternmaking measurement to a Valentina measurement in the majority of instances where they are the same. I created all of the measurements from these patternmaking systems in the Measurement diagram, so that we could create a map between the patternmaking system and Valentina.

    The problem with patternmaking is the naming conventions. We are creating a Rosetta Stone of patternmaking. If every field in a patternmaking measurement template is custom, then we are missing an opportunity and not fulfilling the potential of this software, and I did a lot of graphics work for no reason!

  12. Susan Spencer reporter

    Each patternmaking measurement system template provides alternative descriptions to Valentina measurements.

    When custom measurements are added into a template, they do not duplicate Valentina measurements.

  13. Roman Telezhynskyi repo owner

    You created a template for Aldrich men's, but every measurement in it is a custom measurement.

    Not true. Take a look.

    <m name="height" value="0" full_name="Height"/>
<m name="neck_circ" value="0"/>
<m name="bust_circ" value="0"/>
<m name="waist_circ" value="0"/>
<m name="hip_circ" value="0"/>
<m name="neck_back_to_waist_b" value="0"/>
<m name="neck_back_to_highbust_b" value="0"/>
<m name="shoulder_length" value="0"/>
<m name="across_back_b" value="0"/>
<m name="across_back_half_b" value="(across_back_b/2)"/>
<m name="arm_shoulder_tip_to_wrist_bent" value="0"/>
<m name="arm_upper_circ" value="0"/>
<m name="arm_wrist_circ" value="0"/>
<m name="leg_crotch_to_floor" value="0"/>
<m name="arm_armscye_back_center_to_wrist_bent" value="0"/>
<m name="leg_waist_side_to_floor" value="0"/>
<m name="rise_length_side" value="0"/>
<m name="waist_natural_circ" value="0"/>
<m name="arm_neck_back_to_wrist_bent" value="0"/>
<m name="@cuff_two_piece" value="(1.72*arm_wrist_circ)" description="Winnifred Aldrich /Men/ field&#xa;The one piece sleeve cuff is 1.72 times the Close Wrist Measurement." full_name="Cuff Size, two piece sleeve"/>
<m name="@cuff_one_piece" value="(1.4*arm_wrist_circ)" description="Winnifred Aldrich /Men/ field&#xa;The one piece sleeve cuff is 1.4 times the Close Wrist Measurement." full_name="Cuff Size, one piece sleeve"/>
<m name="@shirt_length" value="(0.56*neck_back_to_waist_b)" description="Winnifred Aldrich /Men/ field&#xa;The Shirt Length measurement is the length from waist to hem. 0.56 times the Natural Waist Length." full_name="Shirt Length"/>
<m name="@trouser_bottom" value="(0.31*leg_crotch_to_floor)" description="Winnifred Aldrich /Men/ field&#xa;Trouser hem width, about 1/3 inseam" full_name="Trouser Bottom measurement"/>
<m name="@jeans_bottom" value="(0.274*leg_crotch_to_floor)" description="Winnifred Aldrich /Men/ field&#xa;Jeans hem width, about 1/4 inseam" full_name="Jeans Bottom Measurement"/>

    Custom is only names with symbol '@'. All other are mapped to pattern making system names.

  14. Roman Telezhynskyi repo owner

    Note: There is a custom body measurement in Aldrich men's that isn't in Valentina.
    The Aldrich name is Half Back and it's Valentina formula is (across_back_b/2) There is not a diagram available, nor should there be one. The person who needs this template will either know the system or be able to figure out what it is from the formula. The Aldrich template creates a new half_back variable name, but IMHO it should be @half_back to show that it's custom.

    I made this because i saw this.

    <m full_name="" value="0" description="" name="across_back_b"/>
<m full_name="" value="(across_back_b/2)" description="" name="across_back_half_b"/>
<m full_name="Half Back" value="(across_back_half_b)" description="Winnifred Aldrich /Men/ field" name="@half_back"/>

    Your record mean across_back_half_b is equal to @half_back.

  15. Roman Telezhynskyi repo owner

    Each patternmaking measurement system template provides alternative descriptions to Valentina measurements.
    When custom measurements are added into a template, they do not duplicate Valentina measurements.

    Totally agree, and don't see how i break this.

  16. Susan Spencer reporter

    I constructed this wrong. Should have been just one record.

    <m full_name="Half Back" value="(across_back_b/2)" description="" name="@half_back"/>

  17. Roman Telezhynskyi repo owner

    I constructed this wrong. Should have been just one record.

    Ok, then we just need to fix it.

  18. Susan Spencer reporter

    Ah. The measurement dialog box shows a translated measurement field name. The measurement file contains the valentina name. Got it.

  19. Peter Gray

    This first comment might be a little petty, but Winifred might be a bit miffed that her name is misspelt in the descriptions associated with the custom measurements (20 through 24) in the t_aldrich_men.vit file above. Secondly, from the point of view of a Valentina novice, why is this template an individual (.vit), rather than a standard (.vst)?

  20. Roman Telezhynskyi repo owner

    Secondly, from the point of view of a Valentina novice, why is this template an individual (.vit), rather than a standard (.vst)?

    I think, because no one interested in such a template yet. Plus the format of standard measurements far from finish.

  21. Susan Spencer reporter

    Pattern system templates are individual files (t_*.vit) because they are simply a list of empty measurements. No two patternmaking systems use the same measurement set; it is the list of measurements that defines an Aldrich template. Patternmaking systems don't define grading rules or standard sizing charts. Aldrich includes some British Standards sizing data in her books for reader convenience. But you don't have to use British Standards sizing data to create a 'Standard' or 'Multisize' .vst file with the Aldrich patternmaking system.

    A 'Standard' or 'Multisize' file (.vst) is created from your preferred list of measurements from any .vit file, and it could contain one of four variations of data:

    1. Grading rule system: The 'base size' measurement values plus grading rules to calculate each size
    2. Grading rule system: The 'base size' measurement values plus increment values to calculate each size
    3. Government Standard size charts: Measurement values for each size
    4. Boutique size charts: Special measurement values for each size

    Grading rule systems are a separate engineering specialty, they are independent of the patternmaking system.

    The grading rule system, government size chart, or boutique size chart you use will depend upon your market. For example, Husky Boys grading rules and charts are different from Regular Boys even though the patterns for both can be made with the same patternmaking system.

  25. Susan Spencer reporter

    Because not everyone wants to use government Standards data to create their size chart. Maybe they want to use other data to create multiple sizes. To name the multisize file as a 'Standards' file is misleading. The actual split of usage is 'individual' versus 'multisize' measurements. You can enter government Standards data into the Multisize measurement file if you want to, or you could enter data from other sources.

    Background - Most commercial garment labels do not use government Standards because these standards are averages and they create poorly fitting clothing. Most labels generate their own in-house measurement charts and treat this information as their most closely guarded industry secret. Government Standards data is simple averaged data taken from a large population and is not very useful in creating garments for any particular market. Most garments are made for particular markets with more fit requirements than are reflected in the government Standards data.

    To put this simply, the average person does not exist, and the average person in each size does not exist. It is difficult to find an actual person who matches more than 4 of the measurements in any size in these charts.

    Read the introduction to 'The End of Average' by Todd Rose. The introduction is the sample to this book at the link below. It describes how the US Air Force properly responded to measurement/size issues over 50 years ago, yet the Fashion industry carried on with it's faulty assumptions and never improved. https://sample-0daded57d7e78b47d141068d91fc6aba.read.overdrive.com/?p=end-of-average

    So 'Standard' puts the emphasis on government averaged data sets that are gradually losing meaning within the industry. 'Multisize' makes the meaning, flexibility, and usefulness of this file more apparent.

  26. Peter Gray

    I like the Multisize term suggested above but it means that a realistic and relevant baseline size has to be defined for the particular application (whatever that is) and it won't necessarily suit all applications. Thank you for the above insight, this clears up some things that have troubled me for a while. So if I want to create a different sized range of the same garment, I shouldn't really rely on Winifred Aldrich's measurement system (or anyone else's) to do so.

  28. Peter Gray

    There are a couple of tables in each of her books which give a range of sizes for both men and women, I'm not sure if I can attach them here. I would have thought that these would be an adequate starting point to create a pattern using Valentina and then adjust the sizing as required from small to extra large using the medium size (size 12 for women) as the basis to work from

  29. Susan Spencer reporter

    Those tables are British Standards sizing. If you would like to do that, go ahead. It is unclear if Valentina can redistribute that data. But you as an individual can make those individual tables and use the data. When the multisize file format is finalized, you should be able to put all that data in one file to generate nested patterns.

  30. Peter Gray

    If the multisize file format is likely to be developed further than the current standard size file format, it would be useful to include a formula function in the measurement details box. The individual template currently has it but the standard template does not (as one might expect). Your custom 1 & 2 piece cuff, trouser & jean calculations would not work in a multisize file as it currently exists. There are a couple of questions about t_aldrich_men.vit that I still have, regarding choice of measurement but my copy of the book is elsewhere until later this week so I can't refer to it now. Would you mind taking the time to review them at some stage soon?

  33. Raina Gustafson

    I'm currently learning patternmaking at Apparel Arts in Oakland, California. We're using Suzy Furrer's book Building Patterns: The Architecture of Women's Clothing. See https://www.amazon.com/Building-Patterns-Architecture-Womens-Clothing/dp/1424343534 for a description of the book but please note that it's available directly from Suzy at http://www.apparel-arts.com/store/. I'd like to see this system included in the Valentina set. I've downloaded the code base and successfully compiled the develop branch yesterday, but want to know if this addition is welcome before I attempt to share code changes.

    On a related note, what are the parameters of the f(x) fields? Prior to Valentina I've been using Google Sheets. I fully utilize conditional logic in my spreadsheet cells and would like to employ conditional logic in Valentina, too.

    For example, in the Furrer system, Dart Width: Shoulder is dependent on the difference between Bust Circumference and Lowbust Circumference. If that value is 1 inch, the dart width is 0.375 inch. If 2 inches, the dart width is 0.5 inch, etc. Can Valentina currently support this type of logic? If so, what is the syntax I need to use?

    Thanks!

  34. Raina Gustafson

    One more thought–I believe the only body measurement used in the Furrer system which I was unable to find in Valentina is Neck Front to Bustpoint.

  35. Susan Spencer reporter

    @rsskga Congrats on enrolling in Apparel Arts! I'm ordering Suzy Furrer's book today. Would you create an issue to add the neck front to bust point measurement?

  38. Roman Telezhynskyi repo owner

    I've downloaded the code base and successfully compiled the develop branch yesterday, but want to know if this addition is welcome before I attempt to share code changes.

    More than welcome. But before do something better to discuss first. I don't want you to spend your time for nothing.

    On a related note, what are the parameters of the f(x) fields? Prior to Valentina I've been using Google Sheets. I fully utilize conditional logic in my spreadsheet cells and would like to employ conditional logic in Valentina, too. For example, in the Furrer system, Dart Width: Shoulder is dependent on the difference between Bust Circumference and Lowbust Circumference. If that value is 1 inch, the dart width is 0.375 inch. If 2 inches, the dart width is 0.5 inch, etc. Can Valentina currently support this type of logic?

    Yes, we support conditions. The basic syntax of using the ternary operator is thus: (condition) ? (if_true) : (if_false)

  39. Raina Gustafson

    Yes, we support conditions. The basic syntax of using the ternary operator is thus: (condition) ? (if_true) : (if_false)

    Fantastic!

    More than welcome. But before do something better to discuss first. I don't want you to spend your time for nothing.

    Is the src/libs/vpatterndb/vtranslatevars.cpp file the correct place to add new patternmaking systems? Suzy Furrer's book as well as Aldrich's Metric Pattern Cutting for Children's Wear and Babywear seem like they would be appropriate additions. (And btw... I'm very excited to work my way through the list that has already been compiled!)

  40. Roman Telezhynskyi repo owner

    Is the src/libs/vpatterndb/vtranslatevars.cpp file the correct place to add new patternmaking systems?

    Adding new pattern making system is more than just that. Additionally we need to create new translation file.

    I don't think it is good idea for you to touch this place.

  43. Log in to comment
Assignee
Type
enhancement
Priority
major
Status
wontfix
Component
Examples
Milestone
TBD
Version
–
Votes
1
Watchers
1
Jira: the preferred issue tracker for Bitbucket. Join the team!